Growing Parents, with Katerina Di Marco

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it's exactly how I would like every parent to feel, like not judged,

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but, proudly speaking about what they have accomplished on their journeys.

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Welcome to I'm Back.

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Today,

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I'm really, really happy because we are having a conversation with Caterina Di

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Marco, a mom of a 16 month old Berenica.

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And the consultant facilitator and embodiment coach.

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She's currently building her own business pose to move.

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She's also the responsible of the learning cluster under the LND shakers

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community.

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Parents grow too.

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The aim of this cluster is to connect and empower, working parents

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who believe that becoming a parent does not bring only limitation,

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but also opens new opportunities.

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We are going to explore together all of these and the magic of Welcome, Katarina.

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thank you so much for being here.

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It's really a pleasure to have you on my podcast.

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And I would like to start with the first question.

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That is what means I'm back for you.

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Oh, hi Serena.

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And first of all, so big thanks to you for inviting me.

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I really appreciate it.

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And.

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yeah, I, I remember our first conversation and how nice it flowed.

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And so I'm, I'm very happy to be here and have this another more

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deeper conversation with you.

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And I am back.

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So in general, being back for me, it's about three things.

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It's about a presence and change and opportunity.

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so if I'm coming back somewhere.

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It means I must have been absent for a while, and during the time I must

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have been necessarily present somewhere else, and something else must have

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happened, and with that comes change.

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And it's about coming back in this different state or, with carrying this

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change with you, and instead of coming back the same and trying to fit in

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as we were before, it's about Finding opportunities, how to work with the change

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and what else it can bring and being open to that, and for me specifically,

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we agreed to have this conversation about me, coming back from, let's say,

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maternity leave, parental leave to.

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back to work.

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and I'm, I'm only, it's, it's a process.

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I, I think I back.

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It's also not, point.

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It's not, a day.

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It's not the moment.

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It's, it's something that is, somehow evolving.

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It's, it's a process of, going somewhere.

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How can you balance the presence with the change, especially if you are maybe

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wondering about your new identity?

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Hmm.

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I think it's a lot about acceptance and I'm noticing it a lot as a mom.

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There's a, a lot of expectations and often I want to be present somewhere else or

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I want to be present in a different way.

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And it's really accepting I can only be in one place.

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And with, your little child, it's also about being.

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Acceptance to or accepting that you don't have the full control of things.

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And that is for me, I think the biggest change it's really, becoming a mother.

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I have less control of my choices or of the change that is happening to me.

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Often it's, somehow guided or, decided by my daughter.

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or other circumstances.

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So, yeah, a lot about accepting and, and sensing what is, what is at the moment

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and being, being in the, in the moment.

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Was it easy for you to accept all these things or it was really a process?

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It is still a process.

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I would love to say that I am now like, I got it and I can accept

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everything and it feels easy.

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It's not like that at all.

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I have days when it is easier.

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I have days when I'm really resisting and I'm noticing this resistance

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in myself, in my mind, in my body.

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so it is, it is an ongoing process and there are certain

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things that help me in accepting.

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and I have to be very mindful of not forgetting about them and

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putting them in my daily routine.

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So then accidents comes easier.

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You mentioned the fact that you were returning to work after

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maternity or paternity leave.

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Parental leave, let's say.

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How was that process for you?

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Mm-hmm.

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. So unlike many other parents, I haven't returned to my previous employer.

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So, and I think that that then is, even a different and scenario

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than, than it was for me.

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Cause I really didn't come back to the very same environment.

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But I also changed kind of the circumstances.

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In which I'm coming back as a professional.

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So for me, it's maybe yeah, coming back to my professional identity.

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and.

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I there has been a lot of changing changes in my life.

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Not only me becoming a matter but also us moving countries and me

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quitting my previous employer, and Trying to establish myself as a as a

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business over owner as a consultant.

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So it's a lot of changes in the same time and it is definitely still a process, but

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I think The motherhood, and the fact that I was somehow forced to change, there was

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this change that came with me becoming a mom, and it's something that kind of

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happened without me deciding to change.

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I mean, okay, I decided to become pregnant and have a child, but

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then together, other changes came.

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And I think this has allowed me to somehow reassess.

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who I want to be as a professional and also reassess the

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circumstances I want to work in.

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and obviously, then there are some practical things as well

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to have more flexibility.

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because I, I do not want to do a full time, office job anymore.

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I know it's a choice for many other parents and.

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I think it really depends on the personality, but for me at this very

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moment, it might change in the future, but it is at this very moment, it is

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not, something I envisioned for myself.

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And with that comes also a reflection on what I can do with the time I

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have and, with the skills I have.

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And you are doing really exciting projects around.

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motherhood or becoming a parent.

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Would you like to tell us more about that?

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Yes, totally.

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So, it's a, it's a project that is called Parents Grow Too.

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It's under L& D Shaker's community.

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I think some of the listeners are familiar with it, but if not, it's a

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community, created by Ana Maria Dorgo.

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for learning and development professionals who are very keen to exchange and just

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grow together and learn from each other.

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And, I came across it actually when I was on the parental leave, because I

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was looking for opportunities on how I can engage again with the professionals

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from my field without being in the job.

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And, LND Shakers really Open this door for me.

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and so I joined some workshops and some events and one of

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the events was, on conference.

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it happened in autumn last year and participants were, invited to come up

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with a topic that they would like to discuss with the fellow LND shakers.

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And because parenting was very present for me at the time, I just came with

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the topic of, how can we support working parents as L& D professionals?

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Because that is something I haven't really...

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noticed, previously, in my role or, talking to other, and I need professionals

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and knowing how other HR team works.

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I've seen, there has been quite a lot done on the operational side, let's

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say, but not so much about, learning and development and, yeah, so that's

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how the idea got born and then it took me a couple of months and Ana Maria

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has been supporting me and I also had interviews with, Lots of different

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parents from many different fields about what they would find helpful, what are

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their challenges, and this is how the parents grow to initiative got born are

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actually now it's a learning cluster.

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so, and we have, over 70 people in the Slack channel already and some

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engaged people on LinkedIn as well.

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And we host our very first session, last week, actually this week.

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Yeah.

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Oh, it feels like last week, but it actually was only this Tuesday.

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and the idea behind it is to change the narrative about working

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parents or parenthood and to see it more as a opportunity.

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I think one of the participants in our session this week said, how can we

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strive as parents instead of survive as parents or surviving as parents?

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And I find this twist and this language.

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And so important.

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So let's see where it goes.

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but I'm, I'm very excited about it.

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And, just the fact that we can exchange and share the stories and, openly

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talk about how it is, without any judgment and without maybe fear of,

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Oh, what if I mentioned that I might not be at my best at all the days.

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at work, what will happen, and sharing with other people that it's totally okay,

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but it doesn't make you less valuable.

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But on the other hand, you might have some, skills you developed, as a

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parent that you didn't have before, and it's actually your strength as well.

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Opening up this conversation is the core.

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I'm really curious about the narrative part because from my personal perception,

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I'm not, parent yet, but from my own perception, I have seen many, many

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times, especially in Italy, with our, culture, that if you are a man

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and you became a parent, who cares?

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Because you don't have any...

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visible impact on you, so you are asked to do the same work, perform

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in the same way, and there is not, a lot of discussion about it.

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And as a mom, or, I was saying, as a mother, You are perceived,

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unfortunately, often as less, professional or with, more potential issues.

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and so I have seen many, many times.

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The mothers not sharing in the workplace a lot of their challenges or

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opportunities because they were afraid.

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And I don't know if I'm using strong words here, but what is your perception

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of the narrative around parenthood?

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There's been a lot in the question that I kind of want to reflect on.

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There's definitely the cultural aspect, right?

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Italy can be one case and Germany is slightly different.

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And then I have no idea about artists in India or Africa.

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And I think this is really impacting a lot the way how we then face the coming back.

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so there is definitely this systemic part, that, either opens or closes door for us

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when we become mothers or fathers as well.

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and then

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in.

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Can you repeat me the, the last, last bit, because I got lost in the culture aspect.

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Yeah, what is your perception of the narrative around parenthood?

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Yeah, the narrative, yes.

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Sorry.

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so, we, we say, ah, you go on a parental leave, you go on a maternity leave.

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actually, in Czech Republic, where I am from, you call it,

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Like maternity holidays, it's, and it's, it's crazy, it's crazy.

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And it's really perceived that way, by big part of the society.

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They're like, you're on holidays.

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Hey, and I mean, I'm having a lot of fun with my kid, but it's

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a full time job if you have, if you have your child full time.

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So, I think the narrative definitely depends as well on the, on the country.

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or order community.

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We are in and I have also mentioned before the fact how to maybe move from

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just surviving to striving and, Also, when you come back to the office, right?

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People often ask you like, how are you?

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And you might say, I'm tired.

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I had this sleepless night, but it's okay.

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And you go on.

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So there is not much conversation about, how it impacts you, professionally, or

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I think we should also ask questions.

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What do you need to.

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to be able to, to work as a parent, or what could help you, how could we support

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you, like inquiring rather than just assuming or, how, how to say, just like

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okaying, and, and also, yeah, like to, when we come, when we come to this gender

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topic, right, that's, that's a big one.

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I also don't feel like a right person to go too deep or to, to open it up fully,

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but there has been definitely a difference between how you're perceived as a mother

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or a father and how your colleagues.

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Approach you or, or see you.

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So also changing the language about that.

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like a lot of moms, what I have noticed, a lot of moms, for example, say when

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a husband takes care of their child, they're like, Oh, I'm so grateful he

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took care of my child for three hours.

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It's their child, They both have this child.

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So also changing the way how we, as mothers, Speak about it and speak about

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the responsibilities we have as a family.

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That's another.

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Yeah.

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And if I can add something here, there is also a big difference

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from my legislation point of view.

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Again, speaking out, the Italian context, the fathers can have three days of leave

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and the mothers, let's say five months as a mandatory maternal maternity leave.

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But how can you decide that it's enough to have three days or five months?

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to really go through this really big transformation in your life, in

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yourself, in your family, and how can we, balance the laws that are giving us

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boundaries and limits, our own process?

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Yeah, I, I feel this is very challenging and the rules are not set right,

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they are not equal, and It's not right either for the dads, right?

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There are so many fathers who would love to spend the time with their child.

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And they simply cannot.

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It also comes to the gender gap, right?

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When we speak about the salaries.

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I mean, often...

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Not only talking about the maternity or parental leave, but it's also about

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how much the women and the men gain.

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And then if one of them has to sacrifice the salary, who is it going to be?

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Regardless of who wished to stay with the child.

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so I feel we have still a long way to go as a society to really...

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give the choice to the parents and not restricted with the limited,

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limited times of the parental leave.

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Definitely not by, giving different times for mothers and fathers.

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I've also, seen cases when the mom goes to work after a few weeks and the dad

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stay with the child for a whole year.

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And this should be just possible for everyone to take their own choices.

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How to do that?

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I have no idea.

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I'm speaking more about it, going as a, as an example, if we have the

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possibility to do so, if the circumstances allows us, encourage others to take

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the brave move, even though it, yeah, it might not be to take the whole

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year, but, stay, stay more time with your child also in the free time.

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Yeah, I think they're starting with the small steps.

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I'm definitely not the revolutionary type of personality.

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So, for me, it's really about a small changes, small

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steps and the conversations.

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But you are actually doing that already.

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And I was really impressed.

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To notice that when you open the channel and see 70 people right

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join the channel for me is a sign

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that We need to have this conversation and we are not allowing ourselves to

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have these conversations at the moment.

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And I also love the title of your project because parents grow to it.

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Something so easy to understand and, and somehow it's so important to be reminded

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that parenthood is a learning process.

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Would you like to, say something more about the learning process that maybe

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you are experiencing or that you are seeing in your child goes through

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different phases and they have different lengths from one day or a couple of

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hours to two weeks or maybe two months.

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But the only thing that is sure that it's always going to keep changing.

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So it's really like doing is if I like want to correlate it

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to the work environment, it's really working in those sprints.

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It's like very short periods of time when you learn something and then

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you have to reassess and adjust and You, you're always in this process

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of, adjusting and improving or adapting and you can never just stop

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and say, okay, I know how to do it.

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I know how to talk to my child.

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I know, how to make her put her, put the shoes in the morning because people

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go through so many phases and so many different moods that there will always.

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I will always need to come up with a different strategy.

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so it really creates this like growth mindset and, and I, I think

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to, to, if you approach it from this positive side of you of, okay, this

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is actually a very creative way.

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Oh, your brain can function and how you can, find solutions

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to problems rather than being frustrated because you feel like, Oh.

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It doesn't work.

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I thought I got it, but it's not working.

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And of course, this frustration comes sometime.

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and you're like, Oh, please give me a break.

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I just want to keep doing the things the same way.

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But instead, you always need to learn and yeah, to grow, you

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really grow as a person a lot.

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How can we, empower more parents to recognize, the amazing skills that they

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are developing instead of putting a lot of pressure on them and judgment on them?

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Yeah, this is beautiful.

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And it's exactly how I would like every parent to feel, like not judged,

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but, proudly speaking about what they have accomplished on their journeys.

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it's.

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It really comes again to expectations, I believe, that we put on ourselves as

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parents, but also the society puts on us.

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the fact that, and again, the change, actually, the fact that

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we are somehow striving for being the same and the society somehow

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sees the same as the ultimate goal.

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I feel like we are praised for showing up the same way as

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we were, before having kids.

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okay, if you manage to go out and your child is sleeping in the stroller and

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you can be, the very same, person, you're like, wow, you made it.

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But.

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These moments are so difficult to achieve, and they are always compromising

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something else, and I also feel often It's, we are somehow suppressing some

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part of ourselves to be that same person.

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So, it's a lot about just acknowledging, acknowledging the change and, from

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others, just generally asking of how, how you are, how are you, and,

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and listening and if, if the parents say, I'm okay, maybe asking more.

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what, what, how do you, what have you experienced today, and, and going deeper

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and just trying to uncover and also, yeah, it could be also about what have

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you learned or what was new for you today, asking those types of questions.

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I think it allows to open, open up more and share more and also perceive

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the change as something positive.

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And for me, it's also, share a light on the unique, uniqueness of the journey.

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Because it's so easy for society to say, okay.

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You are a mom like, 1, 000 of other people.

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So it's going to be the same.

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You are not going to sleep.

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It's going to be challenging, but it's the same for everyone.

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And I would like, instead of share a light on your unique and personal

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journey throughout parenthood, what do you feel about that?

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Yeah, I definitely resonate with it.

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And thank you for bringing that up.

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yeah, like anything we do, it's so individual and actually me personally,

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I think a lot of the pressure that I was feeling, especially early

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in the motherhood was coming from trying to be like the other moms.

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Or yeah, because it's, it's a new thing.

Serena: 00:22:33

And so, you, you look for advice and you look for kind of, tutorials.

Serena: 00:22:39

No, I remember at the beginning I spent so much time just like reading articles

Serena: 00:22:44

about how to do it and watching videos.

Serena: 00:22:46

And it just, most of the time it only increased my frustration.

Serena: 00:22:51

And I found the valuable advice and excite, yeah, anxiety as well.

Serena: 00:22:56

So.

Serena: 00:22:57

it's a lot about trusting yourself that you do it right, but that for me,

Serena: 00:23:03

that's trust really came with the time.

Serena: 00:23:06

Actually, I took a long time, I think, and I still feel I could be even more

Serena: 00:23:11

firm with trusting myself and, yeah, not, not outsourcing the answers.

Serena: 00:23:18

When I, when I feel I, I don't know what to do.

Serena: 00:23:22

I just wanted to say that even though the community aspect and the fact

Serena: 00:23:25

that there is someone I can go to and ask for advice is also super helpful.

Serena: 00:23:30

So also not to neglect that.

Serena: 00:23:31

Sorry, this is something I wanted to add.

Serena: 00:23:33

that for me the community was a huge support system as well.

Serena: 00:23:37

so there is some balance between trusting in yourself, but also being

Serena: 00:23:41

empowered by others that are around you.

Serena: 00:23:44

And it's really about having a learning journey where you can.

Serena: 00:23:48

You to a lot of things and you can decide for yourself what things

Serena: 00:23:52

are useful or resonating with you and the things that are not going

Serena: 00:23:58

to be part of your, your journey.

Serena: 00:24:01

do you have any advice for, parents that you want to share?

Serena: 00:24:07

I, I must say I don't feel comfortable giving advice.

Serena: 00:24:11

Also based on what we have just discussed and, but it, yeah, it would probably

Serena: 00:24:15

really be about the, the trust, trusting themselves, trusting their family,

Serena: 00:24:21

trusting their partners and their child as well, because they are tiny.

Serena: 00:24:26

I mean, mine one is tiny, then they grow up, of course, but they will

Serena: 00:24:29

be always younger than you, but often they know better than you,

Serena: 00:24:33

they know better what they need.

Serena: 00:24:35

And for example, my.

Serena: 00:24:37

Husband has been really amazing in understanding my daughter's needs,

Serena: 00:24:42

even when she was just a baby, like not being able to speak, but just by the

Serena: 00:24:47

way, how she moved and the sounds she did, he was really so sensitive to her

Serena: 00:24:53

and could, could guess what is needed.

Serena: 00:24:56

So it's about again, back to the presence and really noticing what is, and sensing

Serena: 00:25:02

with all our senses, what is happening and And only after that, trying to solve

Serena: 00:25:09

it or to act, instead of, seeing there is a problem, reading an article, trying to

Serena: 00:25:13

apply the, the solution and often failing.

Serena: 00:25:17

What are you most proud of your personal journey?

Serena: 00:25:20

Hmm.

Serena: 00:25:21

Cool.

Serena: 00:25:23

I'm very proud in all of that I consciously find some time only

Serena: 00:25:31

for myself and I dance or move or, yeah, do things I'm passionate

Serena: 00:25:37

about and I'm not feeling the guilt.

Serena: 00:25:40

I felt very guilty doing this at the beginning and now I can simply enjoy it.

Serena: 00:25:45

And yeah, I'm very proud of that.

Serena: 00:25:48

That's amazing.

Serena: 00:25:50

Can you tell us a little bit more about the future of your project?

Serena: 00:25:54

So we have kicked off the ParentGrow2 learning cluster about a month ago.

Serena: 00:26:02

And this Tuesday we hosted the first session and I also spoke with amazing

Serena: 00:26:07

Timothy Nguyen and he is supporting me.

Serena: 00:26:11

Co creating the next steps for, for now, and I believe there's going

Serena: 00:26:16

to be more people who are going to engage deeper or even more in

Serena: 00:26:21

the next, next week, next month.

Serena: 00:26:23

But what we have in mind is to have regular.

Serena: 00:26:27

so called parenting circles.

Serena: 00:26:29

So at least once a month host a session where the parents from L& D go together.

Serena: 00:26:35

we open up some topic that resonates with them, and we discuss it and, and

Serena: 00:26:41

see if there's also something we could share with the community outside of the,

Serena: 00:26:45

the circle to have any, a bigger impact.

Serena: 00:26:49

and where it will go after that, I don't know.

Serena: 00:26:54

I think a lot will happen on, a lot will depend on what, what is like

Serena: 00:26:59

going to happen in the next month.

Serena: 00:27:02

I have some ideas, and my ultimate goal would be really to use the strengths

Serena: 00:27:08

we have as L& D professionals and combined it with the topic of parenting.

Serena: 00:27:15

And spread this positive, impact or this positive message that parents

Serena: 00:27:21

grow to and to let more, parents also outside of L& D to be aware that this

Serena: 00:27:27

is a growth opportunity for them.

Serena: 00:27:29

It's not a limitation.

Serena: 00:27:30

It's not something that restricts their life or shrinks their life.

Serena: 00:27:33

It is actually something that nurtures it and opens new possibilities.

Serena: 00:27:39

And makes them a more, wholesome human beings, to make them feel

Serena: 00:27:45

more confident on their journey.

Serena: 00:27:47

This is so beautiful and and so powerful and so needed and I think you

Serena: 00:27:53

are doing a revolution, maybe a small one, but you're already doing that.

Serena: 00:28:00

So, I would like to thank you with all my heart because as I said, even

Serena: 00:28:04

if I'm not a parent, I really see The need of doing that also for people that

Serena: 00:28:13

maybe are thinking to become a parent.

Serena: 00:28:17

And so thank you.

Serena: 00:28:19

Thank you so much for being here with us.

Serena: 00:28:22

Thanks to you, Serena.

Serena: 00:28:23

Thank you for your beautiful questions and that made me thought and yeah.

Serena: 00:28:27

I really truly enjoyed our conversation as always.

Katerina: 00:28:31

Thank you so much, Katerina, for being here with

Katerina: 00:28:34

us and for this conversation.

Katerina: 00:28:37

I feel that we need to discuss.

Katerina: 00:28:39

More and more the challenges, but also the opportunities of parenthood

Katerina: 00:28:45

and coming back to work after a paternity or maternity leave and

Katerina: 00:28:50

for everyone who is listening.

Katerina: 00:28:52

If you have found this conversation useful,

Serena: 00:28:55

please feel free to share it.

Serena: 00:28:56

Thank

Katerina: 00:28:57

you so much and see you next time.