Episode 14
Empowering Inclusion, with Olla Jongerius
Serena talks with Olla Joungerius, Founder of the BerLearn Community & Inclusion and Global Learning & Development Architect at Nortal, about the role of HR in welcoming back employees, about the new challenges on Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion and about the role of vulnerability to create a meaningful work environment.
You can discover more about Olla here:
Transcript
I think it's the focus for everyone should be creating psychological
Olla:safety and which means inclusion in many ways and other things is outcome
Olla:yeah.
Olla:Innovation, creativity and diversity, that diverse group of people
Olla:um, that come to your company.
Olla:It's a, It's a result.
Olla:Retention is a result, innovation is a result.
Olla:Creativity is a result, and engagement is also a result.
Olla:Welcome to this episode of I'm back today, we are going to talk with all our.
Olla:diversity and inclusion, consultant, learning experience designer.
Olla:And really experienced in.
Olla:Building communities of practice.
Olla:We are going to discuss about the role of HR.
Olla:In welcoming back employees.
Olla:I'll can we create.
Olla:A welcoming environment in the workplace..
Serena:My first question is,
Serena:What means I'm back for you?
Serena:Oh, that's you're starting with big guns already, I'm back.
Serena:It's in my understanding it's coming back to the same place, but
Serena:coming back as a different person.
Serena:Coming back either by having overcome difficulties or from which you have
Serena:learned and have grown and not being the same person anymore, but coming back to
Serena:the environment that you have been before.
Serena:But others don't really know that you're a different person now.
Serena:So I will see it this way.
Serena:And how can you explain, how can you explain to others that
Serena:you are not the same person?
Serena:I guess it really depends on the situation, how sensitive situation is.
Serena:For some people who go through traumatic experiences, it'll be
Serena:very difficult to explain it.
Serena:. And for others, it's very uncomfortable to ask a question for
Serena:others who go through just a life experience like having children.
Serena:That could be a bit easier to explain.
Serena:But at the same time, questions will be also perhaps that normal
Serena:not might be comfortable for others or after prolonged sickness.
Serena:That might be seen as a norm for others but might not be comfortable for you.
Serena:It really depends on the relationship also that you have with a person
Serena:or perhaps after gender transition.
Serena:Yeah.
Serena:You are also physically very different person.
Serena:Or it could be that someone who went through divorce.
Serena:Or someone who lost a child.
Serena:Yeah.
Serena:Someone who went on parental leave and they came back from parental leave much
Serena:earlier, and everyone congratulates them on a baby, but there is no baby.
Serena:Yeah.
Serena:So it's very difficult.
Serena:Or someone who lost a loved one.
Serena:So for some things, it's obvious for people that you are a different person.
Serena:For others it's not so obvious.
Serena:. So sometimes it's organization that makes it also, it needs to make it easier
Serena:in a psychologically safe environment.
Serena:For both parties, for both the receiver, someone who went through this experience,
Serena:you were saying about not being the same person.
Serena:Do you think we can still be the same performer at work or also our
Serena:professional identity will shift when we are coming back to work?
Serena:We definitely could be the same performer or even better because
Serena:we understand different aspects.
Serena:Grow, have more empathy for others to become better listeners.
Serena:Depends on situation, of course.
Serena:We perhaps might need some accommodations that we didn't need earlier.
Serena:For example, someone who is a parent might not want to have late evening meetings.
Serena:So it's, it really depends on environment that you're in.
Serena:and whether you have an opportunity in psychological state to also communicate
Serena:your needs you could still be exactly the same performer or even better but you
Serena:sometimes do need to have those s needs.
Olla:Sometimes sometimes if I think about my personal story when you are
Olla:coming back to work, you have a lot of self doubts or yeah, you are feeling not
Olla:good enough or and it's so hard to feel that you can contribute in the same.
Olla:even when, as you said, maybe you can perform better.
Olla:Do you have any advice for people that are coming back to work and feeling
Olla:that their contribution is important?
Serena:It's definitely a lot of imposter syndrome for those, especially
Serena:who been on a leave for a long time.
Serena:Or for those who.
Serena:Generally have self doubt in terms of am I good enough?
Serena:Am I in the right place?
Serena:I think my first recommendation from also my own experience
Serena:will be to share those feelings.
Serena:It really depends on the, on your team.
Serena:But if you're comfortable but share this, say it out loud.
Serena:And also have some role models, those who've been through exactly the same
Serena:experience, to also learn from them.
Serena:There is enormous amount of information on the internet through blogs through
Serena:podcasts the hear podcasts YouTube videos for those who've been through
Serena:similar experience and came back.
Serena:From organizational point of view for myself who work as organizations
Serena:a lot of good organizations also offer specific programs for people
Serena:who have been on for a long time.
Serena:So like reintegration process, not meaning that those people need
Serena:to be reintegrated and need to be upskilled, but more for slow way to not
Serena:necessarily build the tech skills or the knowledge but more for emotional.
Serena:And a mental understanding that they are there, they're smart, they're talent.
Serena:This a good performer.
Serena:And they're also surrounded by peers who are inspiration but are also struggling.
Serena:So hearing the stories of others is extremely important because you might
Serena:be looking at someone who is absolute inspiration or who can do it all, and
Serena:you hear the story like, oh, they're also struggling, and that inspires you as well.
Olla:In your work in your work as an HR person what is your impression
Olla:on the ability of companies in welcoming back employees?
Serena:I don't particularly work in hr, so it's more luan development and
Serena:diversity inclusion, but I do definitely have operational aspect as well.
Serena:In many cases.
Serena:It really depends on the team.
Serena:There is so much importance on a manager who your manager is and whether you as a
Serena:person have the psychological safety to tell them what's going on in your life.
Serena:I had situations where my team members shared some stuff with
Serena:me that if that, if they wouldn't have shared, I wouldn't have known.
Serena:So it.
Serena:Responsibility of a manager to have the psychological safety and also be
Serena:vulnerable yourself and talk about mental health and wellbeing, and show your own
Serena:weaknesses and your own doubts as well.
Serena:And that opens the door for others.
Serena:And many organizations I could give you an example of one organization
Serena:that I worked with as a fin.
Serena:I bought 300 people based in Berlin and one of the employees few years back
Serena:they went through the gender tradition.
Serena:And when she came back to work before all the employees started asking
Serena:questions and having a bit of gossip and having some interesting thoughts
Serena:and some assumptions, the word of the company decided to send a company wide
Serena:email posing the statement in terms of what happened, and acknowledging the
Serena:situation and not warning people about.
Serena:Not making any discrimination, but basically taking a stand on.
Serena:This is what we accept and you will love I can't remember exactly the name, but as
Serena:in he's now, she, and this is the name.
Serena:Please respect that.
Serena:If anybody has a problem, please talk to us directly.
Serena:So it was a stand of the company.
Serena:And that helped to eliminate any gossip or assumption or any uncomfortable
Serena:questions to the person as well.
Serena:And the person obviously was discussed with the person before,
Serena:say, was not out of the blue.
Serena:And it made so much easier for this person to come back and to feel comfortable.
Serena:And little by little people started asking question.
Serena:Also, the person started feeling more comfortable sharing, but also
Serena:setting the boundaries for themselves.
Serena:So that's what organization can go through.
Serena:I also know the situation where one woman went on a maternity leave and there was
Serena:a baby died, so there was a sleeping.
Serena:And she came back to work obviously much earlier than expected.
Serena:And the way the company dealt for that was also very beautiful.
Serena:They have sent an email from her, so she was the one to initiate that.
Serena:She worked with HR and that explained the situation and
Serena:like frequently ask questions.
Serena:And to avoid these questions happening, because people are curious
Serena:curious creatures, sometimes you are realizing you ask very uncomfortable
Serena:questions, especially when this question was asked many times before.
Serena:She made it also easier for herself and also opened up the door to others
Serena:and to avoid this conversation.
Serena:So it really depends on your HR team or like people in culture team the
Serena:relationship you have with them, but with advise every company to have a bit of a.
Serena:What to do in this situation because crisis happen on a global level as of war
Serena:or pandemic or on a person level as well.
Serena:So your communication team needs to prepare as well as your people and
Serena:culture team needs to prepare because.
Serena:The life is so unpredictable and if you have it all already thought throughout,
Serena:as well as resources and action point, it makes it a lot easier for everyone,
Serena:both for you trying to in the middle of the night trying to figure out how to do
Serena:that as well as for the person to come back and feel comfortable coming back.
Olla:And something that I really like about the two examples
Olla:is the collaboration part.
Olla:It sounds like a collaboration between the person and the company.
Olla:An open collaboration and an open conversation Also to empower
Olla:the person in deciding how.
Olla:She wanted, for example, to discuss about something so personal.
Olla:And at the same time, I still feel that in some companies we are not even opening
Olla:the door for this kind of conversation.
Olla:Yeah, absolutely.
Olla:Upfront.
Olla:Any suggestion on.
Olla:How to open the door for this kind of conversations and why do you
Olla:think it's still so difficult?
Serena:I think it's difficult because it's just uncomfortable for everyone.
Serena:Uh, Because you think about, even people in culture seem, they're also humans.
Serena:There, many of them are women and.
Serena:Even having to talk to someone who went through experience,
Serena:it's also emotionally difficult that they don't know what to say.
Serena:So the answer, my answer will be that there is a lot of empathy there is
Serena:needed and more, most importantly, it's active listening skills.
Serena:Yeah.
Serena:Understanding and, but companies, most companies, you're right, most
Serena:companies are not prepared for that.
Serena:And for companies that don't have this culture of welcome people who come
Serena:back some people might not come back.
Serena:And it's for you as an organization to think about it.
Serena:If something, it's a risk mitigation no matter how how hopeless it sounds.
Serena:But it's also risk mitigation.
Serena:And I'm not even talking about traumatizing experience.
Serena:I'm talking about someone having a child and whether man or woman, and coming
Serena:back to an organization and thinking that I don't wanna work 80 hours a week.
Serena:There is no way I'm coming back.
Serena:I have other priorities in life.
Serena:And for you, just losing talent.
Serena:I work with many organizations and I interviewed people and they.
Serena:I love my company.
Serena:It pays well.
Serena:It's a cool culture, the hipster, fun Berlin startup.
Serena:There is no way I'll be working here when I'm having children.
Serena:That's it.
Serena:So also for you to understand that.
Serena:There's risk mitigation.
Serena:Yeah.
Serena:And not about only women having children.
Serena:Yeah.
Serena:Men also have different priorities when they have family.
Serena:Yeah.
Olla:And we always forget about them.
Olla:It's super interesting for me that the risk mitigation part because it's
Olla:something like hidden because you think, oh, I'm applying the law, I'm
Olla:following the rules, and it's enough.
Olla:What is missing for me is also the impact of how you are handling
Olla:certain situation on other.
Olla:Because I had the experience of one person going into a burnout, coming back with
Olla:a horrible situation with her manager, and everyone else was seeing that.
Olla:And finally enough, a lot of people left because of this, even if they were not
Olla:directly experiencing the situation,
Serena:because they could see, if it happens to me, this
Serena:is gonna be the consequence.
Serena:So I'd rather go before that happens.
Serena:Yeah.
Serena:Yeah.
Serena:Escape.
Serena:Yes.
Serena:Escape, run.
Serena:Yeah.
Serena:Absolutely.
Serena:Absolutely.
Serena:I've, I work in a in a very high paced environment.
Serena:In my company with hyper growth and I was going through very personal experience
Serena:recently and I'm extremely lucky to I have felt very comfortable sharing both
Serena:with my manager and all of my reports, my indirect reports that I'm going through
Serena:difficult time and I might be taking time off and I might not be as productive.
Serena:And I'm very lucky that, first of all, I.
Serena:The psychological safety through that.
Serena:And second, all that, the amount of support I receive was overwhelming.
Serena:My managers straight away say like, don't worry about work.
Serena:Work is not important.
Serena:Screw work, don't work.
Serena:Go sick, leave, take time for yourself.
Serena:And that was that would actually kept me going because I needed work for me was a
Serena:good distraction for me, was very nice.
Serena:But knowing the fact that you're surrounded by those people.
Serena:That was extremely empowering that supports you.
Serena:And at the same time, after sharing my personal updates, a couple of
Serena:team members came to me and said, thank you for being a good leader,
Serena:because I feel more comfortable even more comfortable now also sharing.
Serena:So thank you for sharing your vulnerabilities.
Serena:Yeah, it was beautiful.
Serena:It was a win-win
Serena:, Olla: we are always talking
Serena:but how can we really feel.
Serena:There is psychological safety in our team.
Serena:To me psychological safety is having difficult conversation
Serena:and feeling comfortable having a difficult conversation with
Serena:someone regardless of the security.
Serena:Regardless of the hierarchy, regardless of your channel in the company.
Serena:So it's for you being able to ask a different, difficult question for
Serena:you to challenge someone and not have repercussions, and for you to be able
Serena:to bring your whole self to work, right?
Serena:So it's not just about professional self, but the whole self about.
Serena:Talking about kids, talking about a person life, talking about
Serena:health, talking about everything.
Serena:Because we spend so much time with work and most of us are online, in
Serena:front of our computer at home, so we can't really separate work and life.
Serena:So, okay, now, nine in the morning, okay.
Serena:I'm a work self and then at 5:00 PM I'm a person self.
Serena:So those words I merged a long time ago.
Serena:So psychological safety is when you don't have to put a mask.
Serena:, you don't have to code switch.
Serena:You don't have to change your accent or change your clothes or put your
Serena:makeup on in the morning specifically because it has to be pretend someone
Serena:that you are not just to fit in.
Serena:But it's when your whole self is appreciated and you more for
Serena:cultural contribution and culture.
Olla:Wow, this is so powerful.
Olla:And I'm curious on what do you think about linking these to diversity inclusion?
Olla:When we talk about diversity inclusion, often we have some
Olla:categories in mind, but for me, having the courage to bring your old.
Olla:It's contributing to diversity and inclusion.
Olla:What do you think?
Serena:Yeah, absolutely.
Serena:To me, diversity inclusion, I think is a bit of overused words in a way that a
Serena:lot of people use it interchangeably, but actually knowing the meaning behind that.
Serena:So to me, diversity is a fact.
Serena:It's obvious that all of us are different.
Serena:Gender, sexual orientation, religion.
Serena:Age, marital status.
Serena:It's, you know, when the company say, oh, we have a diverse organization.
Serena:Okay, amazing.
Serena:Yes, the world is diverse.
Serena:What's the be to be proud of?
Serena:is important is whether those people can be themselves at work
Serena:and actually not put a mask on.
Serena:I think for many organizations they see diversity as by default
Serena:and advantage by default.
Serena:That's submitted leads to creativity, innovation.
Serena:I don't know all those amazing things that Deloitte will tell you,
Serena:but the reality is that diversity does not really work with inclusion.
Serena:Diversity by itself is a conflict.
Serena:Yeah.
Serena:Because there are different people with different perspectives.
Serena:They don't really understand each other.
Serena:Diversity is a slow decision making because you need to
Serena:find so many consensuses.
Serena:So what I usually look at the company is that you really to focus on inclusion
Serena:first before you go into diversity.
Serena:So inclusion is, can we have a difficult conversation?
Serena:So not manage diversity is chaos.
Serena:It doesn't lead to innovation, it leads to chaos.
Serena:So managed diversity is inclusion.
Serena:And inclusion is a fact.
Serena:Diversity is a fact.
Serena:Inclusion is a choice.
Serena:So thinking about it from a perspective of diversity is an apple.
Serena:Banana peach and including this, a fruit salad.
Serena:Yeah.
Serena:It's when all of it me mixed together and it tastes good and it's nice and it's
Serena:all colorful and beautiful and not really being, not, no one really being single
Serena:handed for the, for their diversity.
Serena:Huh.
Serena:I think it's important to, for companies to really focus on
Serena:the inclusion, focus on the.
Serena:How and what can we actively do?
Serena:Because if you don't consciously include, you unconsciously exclude.
Serena:And I think it's very important.
Serena:It's not enough just to bring people together and say, okay,
Serena:now we have a diverse team.
Serena:Now, do you diverse things, , , , ? I think diversity should be.
Serena:Second step after inclusion, even focused on the psychological safety first,
Serena:and having difficult conversation and having different perspectives heard.
Serena:And then diversity will come naturally.
Serena:Diversity is small for result.
Serena:In many ways.
Olla:Yeah.
Olla:And for me if we are able to create psychological safety and real inclusion,
Olla:we are also allowing everyone to exactly be themself and be as diverse
Olla:as they are without mask, as you said.
Olla:But it's still a process where people needs to feel
Olla:comfortable to show themselves.
Olla:For example, I just discovered something about one colleague that I know since
Olla:two years ago, but it was a process and it's okay and it's beautiful like this.
Serena:Yeah, absolutely.
Olla:I think it's the focus for everyone should be creating psychological safety
Olla:and which means inclusion in many ways and other things is outcome Yeah.
Olla:Innovation, creativity and diversity, that diverse group of
Olla:people that come to your company.
Olla:It's a result.
Olla:Retention is a result, innovation is a result.
Olla:Creativity is a result, and engagement is also a result.
Olla:Yeah.
Olla:But how can you.
Olla:Wait.
Olla:In the sense that we want to have everything immediately, the results,
Olla:the retention, immediately the engagement, and immediately when we
Olla:know really well, that is a long term process and something that you need to
Olla:build, and it's not really something that you can grab like in one month.
Serena:No, it's definitely a process's.
Serena:Everything else it's in the same way.
Serena:It's a culture.
Serena:What kind of company culture do you have?
Serena:It does, it's not born overnight.
Serena:It's all about small things, small rituals of.
Serena:Do you have interrupt?
Serena:Is it normal to interrupt people during a meeting?
Serena:Is it normal to ate?
Serena:Is it normal to challenge leaders for someone who is also very junior?
Serena:Is it normal to um, make some remarks that are not very inclusive or make some
Serena:jokes that are not very appropriate?
Serena:So it.
Serena:, it grows and it grows.
Serena:It's like wheats in a garden.
Serena:They wouldn't grow overnight, but if you don't get rid of them, they're gonna
Serena:contaminate the whole garden and all the good flowers are going to die out.
Serena:So it's for you to having consistency, make checking yourself, are those the
Serena:behaviors he want to see in organization?
Serena:Those the behaviors he wanna promote others, those behaviors.
Serena:He want to educate.
Serena:. And then building on that you have your culture chain, you have
Serena:your expectational behaviors.
Serena:So if you realize that one day, oh, we have a toxic environment, toxic
Serena:organization, how did that happen?
Serena:It took years and years, and very often leaders are the one
Serena:who either turn a blind eye towards that or did not call out.
Serena:Unconscious bias.
Serena:Did not call out microaggressions, did not call out some remarks
Serena:and say, oh, it just a joke.
Serena:Oh, she didn't mean that.
Serena:Oh no, it doesn't matter.
Serena:Oh, I will be silent this time.
Serena:Or, yeah, I will ask him in private.
Serena:It's all those small things.
Serena:Or some comment.
Serena:That are normalized.
Serena:Oh, you should smile more.
Serena:Yeah.
Serena:All the small, small, small things, uh, that actually make up, the weeds of
Serena:the garden and that it's very hard to if you don't call it out, if you stay
Serena:silent, don't call out some behaviors.
Serena:It's not only the person not going to learn, but anybody else who
Serena:has observed this behavior, they will unconsciously clock in and
Serena:say, oh, okay, so this behavior.
Serena:Since saying this and that it's normal.
Serena:So I will practice it as well.
Serena:So suddenly, instead of dealing with one person, we have to deal with five people
Serena:who also gonna adopt this behavior, and that grows very quickly and spreads
Serena:across, across the whole organization.
Olla:We are talking about coming back to work after life changing experience,
Olla:but we are all experiencing, I think, things around the world that can
Olla:have a big impact of on us, like the pandemic, like the war in Ukraine,
Olla:like what happen in Korea right now.
Olla:And so I'm wondering what is your perception on.
Olla:Creating the space at work to discuss big things that are
Olla:happening in the world that can have a big impact on our wellbeing.
Serena:Very good question.
Serena:Tip number one, don't ignore it.
Serena:. I think the organizations that kind of pretend that it will pass let's
Serena:just sleep on it and that'll go away.
Serena:That indicates that you don't care and that you don't really.
Serena:Understand what people could be going through.
Serena:So this the silence of our friends is worse.
Serena:There was there was a very good phrase It was not the words of our enemies that
Serena:hurt us, but the silence of our friends.
Serena:So it's extremely important to acknowledge that because people
Serena:do go through different things.
Serena:For example, in the war Ukraine, the first thing that I did Working with a
Serena:lot of organizations, also in my own organization that I work in is to send
Serena:out an email for companies saying, please, you have to say something.
Serena:You have to say, you have to acknowledge both.
Serena:First of all, the situation.
Serena:Acknowledge and support your Ukrainian employees, as well as not to forget
Serena:your Russian employees as well, because they're also going through a
Serena:lot of very drastic things that you would want to go through as a person.
Serena:So silence does not help.
Serena:So it's important to to take a stand and I know many companies
Serena:now say taking too much stand
Serena:I also know situations where in, in 2020 when the Black Lives Matter
Serena:move and started in Europe, a lot of companies started posting on
Serena:social media and Black Lives Matter.
Serena:And the employees commenting, saying, duh, is it like we don't
Serena:have a single black employee?
Serena:Don't be so two-face.
Serena:So ization also needs to be careful don't jump in a bank wagon.
Serena:You also need to believe and trust what you're doing.
Serena:If, if you, If you say, who were posting about and then all those spread, but
Serena:then ended up with, and then uncover that actually working with fashion
Serena:companies that were supporting that.
Serena:Be careful what you say, but it's important for you to answer your question,
Serena:to communicate your standard as a company because silence does not work.
Serena:And number two, To have to have a channel for people to discuss those issues.
Serena:And I know some companies ban it.
Serena:For example, there was a situation of base camp two years ago,
Serena:the ban to have any political discussions on the internal channels.
Serena:Straight away, 30% of the company left.
Serena:And then it was another company that said that you're not allowed to discuss any new
Serena:social political issues and then people leave because you're being silenced.
Serena:How can you not discuss that?
Serena:And yes, it does distract people, but it's better for people to discuss
Serena:that in a safe environment rather than develop distrust also towards the.
Olla:And what do you think about the boundaries that are important
Olla:between your personal life and your work life, but also the fact that
Olla:you are bringing to work every day?
Olla:What is happening in your personal life, internal or external?
Serena:It's a very good question.
Serena:I think here I have to be also honest and say that I'm a little bit torn
Serena:between those two because in the past we used to go to work clock and clock
Serena:out, come back home and that's it.
Serena:Now we are so invested and companies understand that.
Serena:And also, to be honest, they take advantage of that.
Serena:And so now if you want to leave.
Serena:In the past, you live work, you change the company you live, but now you're
Serena:stuck because you live with your friends behind you, leav in your gym,
Serena:behind perhaps your health insurance.
Serena:Maybe your kids go to school sponsored by a company or kindergarten sponsored
Serena:by a company, or you have some sort of.
Serena:Stock options, or you have a health package or this or that or that, or some
Serena:sort of subscription to, all the small things as in, they don't cost that much,
Serena:but it's, it makes a lot harder for a company for a person to make decision.
Serena:As in look at Google, it's as simple as offering food to people.
Serena:It's a very simple thing.
Serena:Google, Facebook, but people end up staying there.
Serena:Why would you wanna leave?
Serena:The office, if there is food there, there is gym, all your friends are there.
Serena:So it's a trap.
Serena:So I think for people who are really excited about all these perks offered by
Serena:the company, they also need to be asking themselves, am I being trapped as well?
Serena:You what?
Serena:Realizing am I setting my soul?
Serena:And be careful.
Serena:Be careful in companies.
Serena:Say we have family, the family, the family don't lie.
Serena:Families don't disown someone when they don't have money
Serena:when you're not behaving well.
Serena:So it's extremely important to set boundaries and also, Not being let
Serena:on by a company to to take advantage of that consciously or unconsciously.
Serena:Having life outside of work is extremely important, and I'm the one guilty of
Serena:that because, work in learning and development, so I'm the one, offering
Serena:exciting, cool bells and whistles for people to retain people and to
Serena:engage people, and to grow people.
Serena:So they stay in a company.
Serena:And also having community building, the sense of belonging organization.
Serena:So I'm torn because both my work at the same time, I see the negative consequences
Serena:because it is a double edged sword.
Serena:So for you as a person, you need to understand what are
Serena:your boundaries and whether you.
Serena:Don't have friends outside of work.
Serena:If you don't have anything going on outside of work, if on Friday night
Serena:you check your teams or your Slack to see what's going on, that's a very
Serena:big sign that you probably need to set your priorities straight because.
Serena:Work is just very temporary.
Serena:And you need to have a more, a long term perspective on yourself
Serena:and your, don't put all X in one basket and have your boundaries.
Olla:What I have seen, especially with startups, is that often your mission in
Olla:life is aligned with the mission of the company, but this is creating an issue if
Olla:you want to live, because it's like giving up on your mission, your personal mission.
Olla:If you give up on the company and there is a discussion.
Olla:It's important for me to have about, you are contributing to the mission,
Olla:but it's your personal mission.
Olla:It's not only the startup mission or the company mission, and sometimes
Olla:I feel that there is a big exist crisis for people that are leaving the
Olla:company also because they are feeling.
Olla:They are giving up their personal mission.
Olla:Do you have a similar experience or different?
Serena:Yeah, definitely.
Serena:I don't have a hundred percent like when I left the company and I really
Serena:felt, but I think what you do give up.
Serena:Because you develop such a strong attachment to the company you feel like
Serena:you're giving up a part of yourself.
Serena:And that's the danger I'm also talking about in terms of you
Serena:feel like you cut off your limb.
Serena:And it's always very dramatic, but it is, it does really feel this way
Serena:that you feel you also betray your dreams and you betray, but it does not
Serena:necessarily mean that the whole worlds around this company, your mission.
Serena:You know, The company's mission, unless they're super unique in what they do
Serena:and only company in the world that does that, and hopefully they're so enterprise
Serena:rather than corporate then perhaps, but there, there are ways for you to seek
Serena:self-actualization than just to work.
Serena:And there other ways you can do to feel empowered and have a mission.
Serena:Yeah, so seeing other ways in having this mission is very important and
Serena:not just something that you can also be in control because, let's be
Serena:honest, organizations nowadays in this economic situation, the redundancies
Serena:and layouts is such a normal thing.
Serena:And then even yourself, if you decide because you wouldn't leave, it's
Serena:sometimes it cannot be in your control.
Serena:So it's important to take over the control in your life and not just kind depend on
Serena:someone to own you and to decide also on your mission and on your happiness in.
Olla:It's like coming back to yourself.
Serena:Always.
Serena:Yeah.
Serena:Coming.
Serena:Exactly.
Serena:That's a very nicely, but coming back to yourself, and it's in the
Serena:same way as anything, it's in the same way as also relationships.
Serena:Yeah.
Serena:You don't need to have someone to fulfill you.
Serena:You also need to be happy with yourself, and if you need someone
Serena:to fulfill you, to make you feel happy, that you need to also look on.
Serena:Maybe there could be a problem.
Serena:Someone could, make you happy and make you even happier.
Serena:But someone does not need to exist for the sake of, for you to be dependent.
Serena:It's very unhealthy.
Serena:Other, it's company a relationship or material goods or social media.
Serena:Yeah, being, coming back to yourself and being also like
Serena:content it's extremely important.
Serena:Very healthy.
Olla:Do you want to add something else to the conversation for our listeners?
Serena:No, it was really enjoyable and I really enjoyed that.
Serena:And I think for me it's important to say that if you are listening
Serena:to that, you are not alone.
Serena:Sometimes you could feel like we are the only person in the world to go
Serena:through this experience, but we are not.
Serena:What helps?
Serena:It's um, talking about that, what person helped me is to talk, to,
Serena:say it out loud, talk with friends, people you can trust, people you're
Serena:close with about the situation.
Serena:The more you talk about it, the easier it becomes.
Serena:And also writing it.
Serena:Like journal reflect on that and it helps you to put your thoughts together and
Serena:to say, okay, that's life that happened.
Serena:. Thank you so much.
Serena:Thank you.
Serena:Thanks for having me.
Serena:Thank you for listening to this episode, please share it with friends then needs
Serena:to hear this important conversation.
Serena:You can find more information in the description or on the website.
Serena:pod.link/welcomeback.