Episode 11

Seeking Happiness, with Puneet Singh Singhal

Published on: 11th October, 2022

A really special episode for the International Stuttering Day 2022. Serena talks again with Puneet Singh Singhal, Founder of Ssstart and Disability Activist, about Stammering, a new perspective on Diversity and Inclusion and about the importance of joy, pleasure and happiness.

You can find more about Puneet here:

Transcript
Puneet:

Accessibility to feel.

Puneet:

Because if we feeling safe, then we'll be comfortable.

Puneet:

And if we are comfortable, we'll be even trying to have fun.

Puneet:

Like why DI is all about, inclusion, why it's all about acceptance.

Puneet:

Can we go beyond acceptance?

Puneet:

Can we go beyond that?

Puneet:

We are just focusing on the needs.

Puneet:

So we never disability with creativity ledger celebration, joy, and.

Puneet:

I want to ask why we are not why we are not supposed to have desires.

Puneet:

Why we are only supposed to just survive and not thrive.

Puneet:

Not enjoy, not celebrate our lives.

Puneet:

And I think enjoyment and comfort is by far a human right.

Puneet:

And just cause we are human, we, we are entitled to have that right.

Puneet:

To seek pleasure.

Puneet:

Welcome to I'm back today, I'm going to have a conversation with puny.

Puneet:

I'm really happy to have unit back to celebrate together the

Puneet:

international stammering day to have.

Puneet:

A really provocative conversation around diversity and inclusion

Puneet:

and then.

Puneet:

About the importance for everyone.

Puneet:

These are not to seek happiness.

Puneet:

Pleasure and joy.

Puneet:

Welcome back.

Puneet:

Only yesterday I was planning to design a curriculum

Puneet:

for diversity inclusion.

Puneet:

And what I have felt like the number of workshops that I have

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attended, it's very Americanized.

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The perspective is very narrow and the most of the focus is on,

Puneet:

on when talk diversity, most on which I would not say that it's.

Puneet:

It's not required.

Puneet:

Of course it is required, but there are other complicities as

Puneet:

well, which we need to think about.

Puneet:

There are other interactions as well.

Puneet:

So when I think when I was reflecting what is de For me

Puneet:

DEI is to, is the accessibility.

Puneet:

Accessibility to feel.

Puneet:

Because if we feeling safe, then we'll be comfortable.

Puneet:

And if we are comfortable, we'll be even trying to have fun.

Puneet:

Like why DI is all about, inclusion, why it's all about acceptance.

Puneet:

Can we go beyond acceptance?

Puneet:

Can we go beyond that?

Puneet:

We are just focusing on the needs.

Puneet:

And maybe just, let's have fun with this concept.

Puneet:

Less, less experiment a bit.

Puneet:

And what is my, like I always wanted to learn and the best way

Puneet:

to learn is to make mistakes.

Puneet:

And even if I'm like, I'm something incorrect, I would love to hear

Puneet:

what people has to say about it.

Puneet:

Cause then I think with all of these arguments with debate, I think I will.

Puneet:

And we will learn a whole lot of things.

Puneet:

So let's not hold back just to be politically correct and diplomatic.

Puneet:

We can argue, we can debate about it.

Puneet:

And it's about, having some opinions as well.

Puneet:

So I can question what is diversity?

Puneet:

What is eqd, what is inclusion?

Puneet:

I can look up to dictionary and see the meaning of.

Puneet:

And if we see the meaning of that, suppose inclusion.

Puneet:

So inclusion is about inclusion as, as simple as that.

Puneet:

So like we talk about different intersections, we talk about people

Puneet:

of color, we talk about community, but we are leaving behind white

Puneet:

men, white heterosexual men.

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Because then they are feeling like we are always on the, on this.

Puneet:

We are always expected to listen.

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No one is listening to us.

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And it's like our ancestors have done all of these things.

Puneet:

Why would we be like we declared as in as a pri So we have to take

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everyone together, even if like we call them, Even if we told them like,

Puneet:

like they have all the resources at their disposal, no problem.

Puneet:

We have to take everyone together and this is real and thorough inclusion.

Puneet:

What do you think about?

Serena:

I think that for me personally, diversity and inclusion is for everyone.

Serena:

And sometimes I have the feeling that the diversity inclusion discussion.

Serena:

It's not for everyone.

Serena:

And this make me sad.

Serena:

I can give you personal example.

Serena:

Of course I'm Italian, so I'm I'm from the west.

Serena:

I'm privileged for a lot of things and at the same time I'm a disabled person.

Serena:

What is the fine line between.

Serena:

Being privileged or not because everyone on a of us have and can bring a different

Serena:

story and then different perspective.

Serena:

And yes, some people are more privileged than others.

Serena:

Yes.

Serena:

And at the same time, if we are not curious anymore to

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listen to their stories, What kind of word are we creating?

Serena:

Is it really our word that is inclusive?

Serena:

Is it really a word where everyone feel valued and seen?

Serena:

So I have a lot of question about that, and especially because I really believe

Serena:

that no one needs to be left behind.

Serena:

And uh, I have the impression that we are not doing a great

Serena:

job on this at the moment.

Serena:

What do you think?

Puneet:

Believe that you caught my point of when I said that

Puneet:

privileged people are actually.

Puneet:

That privilege.

Puneet:

There are complexities as well.

Puneet:

There are intersections which are at the, Just because you are

Puneet:

white, it doesn't mean that you have your life has no issues.

Puneet:

Youre a person with disability as well.

Puneet:

So there are of, we are not putting people into boxes.

Puneet:

Too simplify i our thoughts.

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So if a person with disability is just not a person with disability,

Puneet:

That person can have lot of other characteristics in the personality,

Puneet:

he or she, or they can be anything.

Puneet:

They can be an artist, they can be like they can have different

Puneet:

interest and all of these things.

Puneet:

So there are a lot of things like we cannot put human beings into

Puneet:

boxes and we are doing exactly that.

Puneet:

So we are making our.

Puneet:

Work which is supposed to be simple, very complicated because

Puneet:

simple things are not easy for simplicity is the most complicated.

Puneet:

That simplicity and it's is time to, You don think Sarah, that we are,

Puneet:

where are we heading in that regard?

Puneet:

Cause then people will have bitter.

Puneet:

It'll be having bitterness because even if I'm mindful of all of these things.

Puneet:

I am not a white person, but I know, like I read, I go through the talk

Puneet:

about societies like In Western countries, the side rate is so high.

Puneet:

Like why?

Puneet:

If you guys have all the facilities, if you guys have everything, why people are

Puneet:

having mental health issues and suicides

Serena:

because there is something that is happening beneath the thing.

Serena:

Exactly.

Puneet:

So the system is not working well and we are thinking that okay there are

Puneet:

some marginalized sections in this world.

Puneet:

And I'm not being dismissive, I'm not saying that it's a pie.

Puneet:

Like we think of everything as a.

Puneet:

That that, that is a pizza Yes.

Puneet:

That if I got the slice, you will not get the slice.

Puneet:

I think this is, sustainability is all about like having

Puneet:

this supply of happiness.

Puneet:

Why not supply of we talk about food and energy and this is like

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why we, This is stopping seek happiness from your success.

Puneet:

You take, you enjoy my success.

Puneet:

A lot.

Puneet:

And I do the same.

Puneet:

Like I seek happiness from your success.

Puneet:

You won this award, your podcast and I about that, who, about your success?

Puneet:

There is unlimited happiness.

Puneet:

There is unlimited humanity in this world.

Puneet:

And let's explore that together.

Puneet:

Like we, humans tend to divide things like it's so easy to divide, but can we can.

Puneet:

Can we stop and show solid solidarity because in this planet we are

Puneet:

having a war at this point of time.

Puneet:

Theres places like Pakistan where there is flood, there are leaders who

Puneet:

are not behaving in a mature level.

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So there is whole lot of issues and I think as if we can, if

Puneet:

we know a whole lot of things.

Puneet:

Can we feel really inclusive?

Puneet:

Can we look up to dictionary and see the meaning of

Puneet:

it's us?

Serena:

You said before that it's so important to create a safe space.

Serena:

Not only for inclusivity, but also for this pursuit of happiness and joy.

Serena:

And I will add also freedom to be who you are with being truthful to yourself.

Serena:

How can we create this safe space when the world is on fire?

Puneet:

I give you an example of in, in our neighboring country, Pakistan,

Puneet:

we are having blood and some of my best friends are there, they are stuck.

Puneet:

They have lot of challenges.

Puneet:

Lot of diseases are also, they are water bonds is, I would think is going.

Puneet:

The wrong way.

Puneet:

And you know what are the one thing that, that they're seeking

Puneet:

pleasure from is music and dance?

Puneet:

Like as simple as that?

Puneet:

Because when I was proposing that, no, why cannot we arrange a

Puneet:

community level academy will a thing.

Puneet:

I'm not talking about.

Puneet:

Like using money.

Puneet:

I'm just talking about people coming together and seeing that

Puneet:

yes, it's this, like maybe at this point time we are having lot of

Puneet:

challenges being dismissive issues.

Puneet:

Again, I am very mindful that what our heart goes down when we think about it.

Puneet:

It's so difficult to survive, but at the end of the day, people coming together.

Puneet:

And they are share sharing their sorrow and they're trying to be happy.

Puneet:

What's wrong in that?

Puneet:

But some people are like, Oh no, we should only think about food.

Puneet:

We should think about shelter, medicine, all of these things.

Puneet:

This is fine.

Puneet:

These are basic necessities.

Puneet:

But when I think about myself, when I was when my father used to beat me daily,

Puneet:

when my mother was in depression, when I.

Puneet:

I was struggling to eat.

Puneet:

What was the one thing that that me going was get a chocolate.

Puneet:

Like I'm during the day I'm buying myself a chocolate in evening.

Puneet:

That's the one thing I was looking to eat to celebrate that I'm alive

Puneet:

it is all, it's as simple as that.

Puneet:

Like why we are just thinking about look, these people are poor.

Puneet:

These people are like, not p, so we'll also only think about their

Puneet:

needs, but they cannot have desires just as people with disability.

Puneet:

They just can, They are just supposed to survive, just live their everyday lives

Puneet:

with whatever challenges they're having.

Puneet:

Okay.

Puneet:

You do that.

Puneet:

But you cannot seek pleasure.

Puneet:

You cannot have sexual desires, You cannot have romantic partners

Puneet:

cannot have simply, you cannot seek pleasure as simple as that.

Puneet:

So why not?

Serena:

And what if we put pleasure as a basic need?

Puneet:

Beautiful.

Puneet:

Why not?

Puneet:

I just

Serena:

say, Why not?

Serena:

Why not?

Serena:

It was so moving, what you were saying, and I really think that it's a change

Serena:

of perspective because If I'm thinking about people that are coming back

Serena:

to work, for example, it's so easy for them and for all of us to think

Serena:

about, okay, what are the basic needs?

Serena:

Maybe it's the accommodation, maybe it's the chair, maybe, I don't know,

Serena:

something that is really practical.

Serena:

And then you think, Okay, I'm good.

Serena:

No.

Serena:

It's not true because yes, the practical things are important and

Serena:

essential, but what help you to move and to live and to say to yourself,

Serena:

Okay, I can restart from here.

Serena:

I can have dreams, hopes it's something else and it's it's a conversation,

Serena:

I think really disruptive right now because we don't want to talk about

Serena:

the need of pleasure and happiness

Serena:

but at the same time, it's so important.

Puneet:

We see warmth, basic warmth.

Puneet:

Like building the last know that I, we were our last podcasting have

Puneet:

learned the one most touching thing that, that I learned from working with

Puneet:

kids that they have not looked at me.

Puneet:

As a person with multiple disabilities, they have looked as me as a person.

Puneet:

They have not me into a box.

Puneet:

They are looking beyond that and they are listening.

Puneet:

They are observing.

Puneet:

They think I have something to offer.

Puneet:

And they accept it with all heartedness.

Puneet:

Yes we are with you.

Puneet:

Let's do something less experiment.

Puneet:

They're always that, that open.

Puneet:

So what I have learned, like I am not putting them into that, that

Puneet:

these kids are with disabilities.

Puneet:

They are from this, no, this is not their identity.

Puneet:

They're much more than that.

Puneet:

And it's about warmth.

Puneet:

Like people coming back from sickness and they're coming back to the office and

Puneet:

then it's it's someone talking to them.

Puneet:

Like how are you feeling today with that warmth?

Puneet:

No it's not about like getting a job and, or maybe it's not only about

Puneet:

getting his salary and all of this insurance and no financial support.

Puneet:

Yeah, it's fine.

Puneet:

It's really.

Puneet:

But at the end of the day, human beings seek warmth.

Puneet:

Are they getting that?

Puneet:

Are they feeling welcomed and valued?

Puneet:

And half of the issues will be gone because, we are already having a pain.

Puneet:

We are already having this kind of mental stress.

Puneet:

But if someone says okay, let's sit down and talk about how's your life going?

Puneet:

Tell me.

Puneet:

Half of your worry goes go away, and you're feeling like

Puneet:

you're feeling so better.

Puneet:

And even just seconds.

Puneet:

It's better than therapy.

Puneet:

Like we are spending so much on therapies and all of these things,

Puneet:

but the relationship, the in relationships are really important.

Puneet:

And we are somehow missing upon that on everywhere.

Puneet:

On this on, on this.

Puneet:

Planet call heart.

Puneet:

I think

Serena:

sometimes that having a conversation, it's not only enough,

Serena:

but it's what's really needed.

Serena:

And real conversation.

Serena:

Not just saying, Oh, our, you, let's talk about the KPIs that we not need

Serena:

to achieve, but it's about our you.

Serena:

I'm interested in you.

Serena:

I see you.

Serena:

I'm here for you because I care about you and yes, let's talk also about the KPIs.

Serena:

But you first, and this is something that is not so understood right now,

Serena:

that the, our society, it's running Towards money performance, success, et

Serena:

cetera, cetera, and at the same time is creating all the condition to not

Serena:

achieve success, really performance and success, because it's so related to

Serena:

bonds, to connection, to conversation.

Serena:

And as you said seeing the other person with the eye of a child.

Serena:

So without boxes, without labels, who cares about your identity?

Serena:

And I'm saying this in the most positive sense because I think every one of us

Serena:

is much, much more complex than the identity that we are creating for our.

Puneet:

Yeah, and it's we're like to think that we're way too sensitive, that,

Puneet:

we have these kind, fun conversations.

Puneet:

Like it time it takes a lot of trust building.

Puneet:

And you cannot just go to someone and say that, No, let's talk.

Puneet:

If that person doesn't trust you, how can, like how can we

Puneet:

actually talk and it's pretty deep.

Puneet:

It's like it can take time, it can take months, it can take lot of time.

Puneet:

Manage.

Puneet:

It's like, it's not that simple and it's not the only thing that we require.

Puneet:

But certainly it can help.

Puneet:

And because we can just go and rely on someone who to share

Puneet:

that what we are going through.

Puneet:

It's simple, it's easy, it's spaces, and

Puneet:

I think rather than we are more focused on identities.

Puneet:

Can we be more focused on values?

Puneet:

And because you say something about about, about me.

Puneet:

I got triggered insecurities there.

Puneet:

I say something about you.

Puneet:

You got triggered.

Puneet:

Like it's a note ending.

Puneet:

Circle.

Puneet:

And, but if we have trust and if we know that our values are in sync, like maybe

Puneet:

there is something behind that to explore.

Puneet:

So first we will listen to the other person before reacting.

Puneet:

And it's in every little relationship.

Puneet:

It's with parent and child, it's with partners.

Puneet:

It's with colleagues.

Puneet:

I think we are as, it's a very overused phrase, but I would say that we are

Puneet:

listening to react, but not to respond

Serena:

and link it to that.

Serena:

We are recording this episode for our really special occasion that

Serena:

is the International Summering Day.

Serena:

I'm really happy to have you because I think we can have a beautiful conversation

Serena:

about why this day is so important.

Serena:

And what is your wish for the stemming community, for the future?

Puneet:

Thank you so much for asking that.

Puneet:

And to all the listeners, I have not told to ask me that, but I'm pretty prepared

Puneet:

for this question cause this is what I do.

Puneet:

So I got lot of calls, like I got calls at night when I'm

Puneet:

sleeping and these young stores.

Puneet:

Coco is going young people with standard, they want a quick fix.

Puneet:

They want a magic pill.

Puneet:

They just want, get to get themselves treated.

Puneet:

They want talk, what we call fluently.

Puneet:

And it's like I understand like what they're going through, bullying, they're

Puneet:

going through whole lot of issues.

Puneet:

It took me 20 years to actually I was just like that when, in my college

Puneet:

days, in my school days, I was just like oh God just make me a normal speaker.

Puneet:

Just my standing.

Puneet:

It has given me whole lot of things.

Puneet:

When I opened my heart, when I.

Puneet:

Looked back into time, it just make me such a sensitive person.

Puneet:

Such, such a, You made more humane, more I valued word that

Puneet:

is coming out my valued everyone.

Puneet:

I see people who are not hard.

Puneet:

Like I, I see an every marginalized community as relatable.

Puneet:

Cause I, I can see that what it feels when people don't listen to you.

Puneet:

So it's I talk to them that, no just take your time and, you cannot run

Puneet:

from something that is within you.

Puneet:

You cannot run away from.

Puneet:

It's fine.

Puneet:

You're going through a lot.

Puneet:

It's completely un understandable that people are mocking you,

Puneet:

people are loving on you, people are finishing your sentences.

Puneet:

But, all of these pauses, when I was giving a speech in my

Puneet:

school, there was a huge pause.

Puneet:

couldn't address a single.

Puneet:

And when people were laughing on me and I took a long breath and these few

Puneet:

moments of mindfulness, I think it's, this was some kind of meditation for

Puneet:

me, some kind of spiritual awakening for me that I'm so alive when I, by why I'm

Puneet:

doing that to myself, like world can be.

Puneet:

Little harsh on me, little root on me, but why I'm so rough.

Puneet:

Let's not fight with your, just, enjoy that.

Puneet:

Just don't try to do anything.

Puneet:

And it's it works as a therapy for me and.

Puneet:

And now I have no issues with whether I ta or I don't.

Puneet:

It's fine.

Puneet:

It's just the way we speak and I want every single person

Puneet:

withering to feel that way or not.

Puneet:

Justing, any kind person who is not able to express their feelings,

Puneet:

their emotions, it's totally fine.

Puneet:

It's okay.

Puneet:

It's like, Just give yourself some time.

Puneet:

Don't be harsh on yourself, and you are not the only one

Puneet:

who is going through this.

Puneet:

And it's a process.

Puneet:

It's a process of healing will take time, but you allow yourself to,

Puneet:

you have, give yourself that, that open environment and air to breathe.

Puneet:

And yeah, breathing is the fundamental unit of life.

Puneet:

And let's breathe.

Puneet:

That's not run without breathing keep breathing and just walking.

Puneet:

Let's keep walking on this path.

Serena:

We are always running.

Serena:

I feel that we are running against time against people, against ourselves.

Serena:

So it's really beautiful what you are saying and also the reflection

Serena:

that you can give yourself time

Serena:

with the international sta stumbling day, there is a sense of also of celebration.

Serena:

What means?

Serena:

Celebrate your sting to you and do you want to celebrate your sting?

Puneet:

If you would've asked this question few years back, I would be saying

Puneet:

like, Why would I celebrate something that is making my life miserable?

Puneet:

? Yes.

Puneet:

But now I just love, I just love and I, talking about when there was some

Puneet:

incident when someone is timeing on the TV or someone is timeing in real life, I.

Puneet:

I used to become invisible.

Puneet:

Just like I pray to God that I become invisible and I don't wanna

Puneet:

be seen because it's so horrible to see someone as person with, If I

Puneet:

see someone with, It was like I was, I used to ble, I used to shakes.

Puneet:

Really great to encounter that cause.

Puneet:

It's simply the diversity in, in, in the form of expression is what steming is.

Puneet:

Diversity expressing is a different way to express with somes, with

Puneet:

it does different.

Puneet:

It's and still I want to celebrate this day cause I'm proud.

Puneet:

The way we live our everyday lives is difficult, no doubt.

Puneet:

But it's beautiful at the same time.

Serena:

Do you want to add something more on this conversation?

Serena:

I want to add historical political and religious side of stem.

Serena:

Cause it's really important to see that where, from where we are coming.

Serena:

Because in, in the Hinduism and in Buddhism, it is sad that it is ising

Serena:

or any other kind of disability is the result of your past life.

Serena:

Karma.

Serena:

It's the punishment it's it's bad and it's negative, and and

Serena:

you should like, you deserve.

Serena:

This is the narrative, this is the religious narrative.

Serena:

And and then we have Victorian literature in which each time was equated with

Serena:

same sex intimacy that that as tempering is a physical impediment being.

Serena:

Gay or being from gay community is like socially forbidden.

Serena:

So it's quite same thing.

Serena:

And also like they used to say that in some stories being gay men and if you're

Serena:

a men steming, then you are not, man.

Serena:

You're not like, you're not a yeah.

Serena:

Like, how to say that you're not fully developed or whatever for the better.

Serena:

The lack of better.

Serena:

And in politics we have Draw Biden now president of United States and

Serena:

he is continuously facing bullying the opposition parties and all.

Serena:

The people who are against him says that, this person cannot even speak properly.

Serena:

How will he lead the word?

Serena:

So these narratives, we are coming from these narratives.

Serena:

We, we are still facing bullying.

Serena:

The journey, The path is not easy, but on the 22nd of October, as we are celebrating

Serena:

international stuttering awareness we can, we can try to be a good listener.

Serena:

We can try to have more empathy and it's, it works both sides.

Serena:

The people who, whose and people who doesn't.

Serena:

If we are little more open, if we are a little more.

Serena:

Open to change, open to question.

Serena:

I think we can move forward to a new kind of society where differences will be not

Serena:

considered a bad thing because it's all about differences, Homophobia, racism.

Serena:

All of these things are about differences, right?

Serena:

Ableism is also all the difference.

Serena:

It's our defense mechanism to the people who act different, who look

Serena:

different, who think different.

Serena:

So it, it's our human tendency to be afraid of something that is different.

Serena:

We always show assistant to change just about.

Serena:

Showing little bit of openness and yeah, we can be a little

Serena:

more what we say more vulnerable and to have a more inclusive society.

Serena:

Thank you for me.

Serena:

Thank you so much, Punit.

Serena:

It's really a pleasure to have you back.

Serena:

And I am back.

Serena:

Yes.

Serena:

It's pleasure to be back when I'm back.

Serena:

Thank you for listening to this episode, please share it with friends then needs

Serena:

to hear this important conversation.

Serena:

You can find more information in the description or on the website.

Serena:

pod.link/welcomeback.

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About the Podcast

I'm Back!
Returning to work after a life-changing experience can be tough. Whether due to illness, injury, maternity, or for any other reason, we can face a multitude of challenges.

Join Serena Savini as she shares her own struggles with returning to work, and explores ways we can navigate change with empathy, and emerge thriving.

Through conversations with guests, Serena uncovers stories from different perspectives on how we can create a warm environment with a human touch to come back to work.

Artwork by Sara Ronzoni (www.operegeniali.com)

About your host

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Serena Savini

HR Expert, Facilitator and Counselor, Serena Savini is the founder and host of the I'm Back! Podcast. For the past 15 years, she has been working in big organisations and in startups across Europe and US with a heart centric approach to Human Resources and Learning & Development.

She was born with a disability and she had an injury at work in 2016. Since then, she began to do a personal healing process and she became curious about other stories around coming back to work after a life changing experience.